Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, y'.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: All.
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to episode one of the Short Term Shop Poconos Short Term Rental podcast. A lot of you have been waiting for this for a while, and I apologize that it took so long, but it just. We were waiting for the right agent and we finally found him. And so I'm really excited to introduce Tristan Hunt to y', all, the Short Term Shop Poconos agent. Tristan, you want to say hello?
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Hi, everybody. My name's Tristan Hun. I am a short term rental specific real estate agent in the Poconos and then also I operate 15 short term rentals. So very well versed in the space, Very experienced.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Love that. We love experience.
So we'll just dive right in. We don't want to waste anybody's time.
I'm going to ask you these questions as if I have no idea because our listeners may not. They. They might be some New Yorkers who went to the Poconos one time or happen to have never been. And anyway, so what are the Poconos and where are they?
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah, so the Pocono Mountains is located in Pennsylvania, about in. It's like in the middle of Pennsylvania on the eastern side. I would say it's an hour north or an hour and a half north of Philadelphia.
Very popular market. I read a statistic that said over 50% of all revenue produced of Airbnbs in Pennsylvania came from the Pocono Mountains. Very large market. A lot of people are going there, I would say, because it's perfectly centralized in between a lot of pop, like very dense populated areas like Philadelphia, it's only an hour and a half away. New York City, it's about an hour and a half to two hour drive. You see a lot of your target market or your guests driving in. I would say 70 to 75% of all guests are driving into this location from Pennsylvania. New Jersey, New York City and New York as a whole is a very popular area in the northeast and United States.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Gotcha. It's a get out of the city. Get out of some really big cities destination. So a lot of New Yorkers, Philadelphia folks, New Jersey, a lot of people in New Jersey. You know, I never. I never met a Jersey girl that I did not get along famously with. Not completely unrelated. So. All right, so we got it. It's a weekend market mostly and we've got people coming in from the big cities. Get out of the city.
Get. Get out. Get some fresh air in the woods.
So you said it's in eastern Pennsylvania. Like how wide of an area does this Cover. So when somebody's like, I think I'm going to go to the Poconos, how is that? Is it like a small geographical area or a large one?
[00:02:55] Speaker B: It's a large one. So within the Pocono Mountains, it obviously like central, central into it is like Mount Pocono, but, but you have a lot of submarkets. It's a very wide range in just geographically in the area.
And it's not like there's just one submarket that works. It really depends on what attraction you're going to.
You know, you got the East Strasburg, Toby, Hana, Lake Harmony, Mount Pocono, Pocono Pines, Bushkill Falls. Like, there's so many amenities and attractions in this location in Pennsylvania that people are just coming to year round.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Okay, so it is a year round market, you would say.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Yes, year round market. You're it. It basically has two peak seasons. So obviously being a mountain market, it's very known for skis skiing just a lot. There's a bunch of ski resorts. I'd say there's six to seven ski resorts that are fairly popular.
And it also has.
Well, so that's the, the, the ski time which so would be from like December to February or maybe like into early March. And then you have like your, your down times a little bit. Mainly it's. It's March and September, your low months. But then you have another peak season in the summer and each season attracts a different avatar or a guest avatar, I would say. So during your time basically in that market, or rather the time of the year, you'll get a lot of groups that are coming to ski. And now it really depends on what's the size of your home, how many people do you sleep? Because you could have like a, you know, like a smaller, like condo or a, or a three bedroom that you know, can host around like a smaller group, maybe maybe like a family or two.
There's homes in the Poconos that are like seven to eight bedrooms that sleep 20 to 25.
And, and I see it all the time. I'm in like a bunch of Facebook groups and people will say, hey, I'm looking for. On for like this week home near, you know, like this destination and, or this, this attraction and I need sleep.
And it really depends on kind of where you're located to where you'll draw that higher demand.
So, so that's the winter time and now you're getting into the summertime where a lot of beautiful lakes, a lot of nature, a lot of hiking. Remember like A lot of these people that are coming here are, you know, people that are in the city and they want to get away from the city and they just want to enjoy nature. So a lot of lakes, a lot of hiking in the summer, a lot of bachelor and bachelorette parties. I've actually had my bachelor party here right on Lake Harmony, so. And then. Yeah, and then there's consistent demand. Like, you'll usually never have an issue getting, you know, a weekend stay, even if it's in, like, slower time.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: Okay, that's good to know. So the areas closer to the ski resorts will be busier in the winter, and the areas closer to the lake resorts will be busier in the summer. Is that fair to say?
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, that is fair to say. And the big thing, too, with picking your investment and what home do you want to not only maybe like, stay in, but also like, what. Where do you want to invest? It needs to be near some of these areas. Like, you can't just pick an area that's it's going to be 40 to 45 minutes away from all these attractions because it's going to show up in your, your revenue and you're not going to get booked. And you're going to be wondering why is. Because the Pocono Mountains relies short term rentals. This is one of those markets where short people have been coming here way, way before Airbnb, way before all these big platforms for about 50 plus years.
And they've been going on vacation to ski resorts.
They have a couple water parks in the area, too. So maybe it's. Yeah, so maybe it's not like, you know, you're, you're going there in the winter and you're like, well, I want to go in warm water. They have multiple indoor water parks there that are, you know, Kalahari, Camelbacks, Aquatobia, Great Wolf Lodge. Like these ate a Great Wolf Lodge.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: I hate a Great Wolf Lodge. We took our kids in outside Atlanta and it was the grossest place I've ever been, but people love it. It was packed. So if you, it's a reason, you know, for your guests, it's something for your guests to do. But I personally will never again. I'm traumatized, but sorry, go ahead.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: You have options, though, so don't worry. So the, the one that's the most popular is Kalahari. It's absolutely massive. But again, like you, there's so many things to do in, in these areas. Again, like the lakes. The lakes are a huge attraction. So if you can get closer to a Lake, especially Lake Harmony. Lake Harmony is like your premium, you know, where you see like a lot of like higher revenue. If you can get closer to like Lake Harmony, they got Lake Naomi, Lake Walnut, Pampak. Like there are so many areas with. In this large market, it will. But there's multiple submarkets and you kind of find yourself only competing with the submarkets rather than the whole markets. Kind of similar to Smokies in that sense.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: But yeah, plenty to do year round.
People are coming here without short term rentals. The local economy would.
Would just. It would hurt. So. And that's what's good when you're investing into a short term rental market. Because there's always talk about regulations and like, what if they outlaw short term rentals? I obviously can't make any promises, but I do not see that happening in the Poconos. Just because the local economy depends so much on short term rentals coming in. And you know, they depend on that, that circulation of money.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: Love that. So what you're saying is you want to make sure that location is really important. So don't buy something too far out because you're in love with the house and try to make your house the destination.
You want it to be close enough that people can come there and do what they came to do, is what you're saying.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Exactly. And the big part too is you don't want to just have a home that's just for one season.
Right. Because, okay, like, you'll do great. And if you, you. You have a home that's basically built for just ski groups, like, that's awesome. But you'll have a very peak season. But if you're not doing, if you're not kind of tailoring things or like making sure that it fits a wider range of guests for that summertime, you're only going to have a really good.
You're only have one. You're gonna only benefit from one peak season rather than two. So I would say keep that in mind too. Like again, the more centralized something can be, the better. Like for the Poconos, for example, like, you got a bunch of New Yorkers, you got a bunch of people in Philadelphia, New Jersey, and they're fig. They. They don't want to fly somewhere. So they're like, okay, like, what can we do? And again, Poconos is centrally located. It's the same thing when you're buying a home within the Pocono, you want something centrally located. However, the, the closer you can get to certain, like, obviously, like, if You're a lakefront home.
That's premium. Like there's only so many lakefront homes you can get right next to a know ski resort. That, that, that is beneficial, but not in the sense that you don't want your other seasons to not do well based on that, if that makes sense.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Gotcha. So let's talk about lakes for a minute. So in a number of good short term rental markets that have lakes, something will be up with the lake to where you can't actually own on the lake. Like it's own or owned or run by the Army Corps of Engineers. Can you actually buy lakefront in the Poconos?
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Yes, you can buy lakefront in the Poconos within certain communities or some you can, some you can't, but it is common to buy lakefront. However, since it's lakefront, there's only so many homes that are on the lake, which means it's scarce, which means there's not a lot of homes for sale lakefront. So when they do go for sale, they usually don't last too long unless it's just extremely overpriced. So, so it is, you know, scarce in supply, which in turn make it high in demand. But yes, you can, you can buy a home on the lake.
And, and again the, the more people that it could sleep on the lake to the better. That is like there, there's some homes like where you really see the revenue start jumping is when you start getting.
Cause I know in some markets when you go from like a three bedroom to a four bedroom, the revenue starts jumping. That's the same very similar in this market. Like once you start getting into bedroom count, you really start to see the revenue jump up. And you can see that a lot with these lakefront homes as well. I mean some are three bedrooms, there's some that are eight bedroom lakefront homes that do extremely well in the Popenos, like half a million dollars a year. Those come in, those come in small bunches. Like they're, they're usually there's not. So when they go available, they usually do not last long. But yes, you can buy on the way.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: Okay, very interesting. So anything else regarding location that we haven't covered? Maybe throw out a few like I don't want to say top five places you would recommend because then I don't want people to anchor themselves to that. If something really great pops up in another area, that could also be good. But we didn't exactly say but loosely, what are some. If I'm going to go cruise zillow for some properties that might work right now. What would be some your top five townships to enter into?
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah, so. And that's important too with the townships because especially in the Poconos, like, yes, it's a, it's a very popular short term rental market.
But not every area allows short term rentals. So it's always up to the township ordinance and those, we usually determine them by green areas which allow short term rentals, yellow areas which they allow short term rentals. But it's very restrictive. It's like a little, you know, there's more restrictions and then red areas which they're just not allowed.
Really important to pay attention to those areas. But I would say top five, no order. You know, Poopog Township, like the Monroe Township area, that's very popular for short term rentals.
Usually a lot of these townships too, they require short term rental license, safety inspections, things of that nature. And then like the, the areas around like Lake Harmony, Lake Naomi, East Strasbourg is a good area for, for short term rental investing.
You know, Coconut Pines is, is good.
So and again, as far as area wise, again, like I said, it really depends on, you know, the green areas, the red areas.
But it also depends on how good your design is, what your pricing look like. There's so many things that go into what's a good short term rental.
We're past the days of COVID where you could just throw a home on Airbnb and it doesn't either. It's more competitive now. Well, it, honestly, it's probably just went back to how it was before COVID It's kind of normalized in a sense where your design has to be good. What amenities are you offering? How close are you, location wise to, you know, Camelback Mountain, Jack Frost, Big Boulder Mountain, Blue Mountain, Johnny Ski, Big Bear, you know, like these are multiple resorts, Kalahari, you know, Lake, Lake Harmony, Lake Naomi. These are areas where it's like, how close are you? What are, what's separating you from these other homes? Right. Like when I'm scrolling on Airbnb, what's going to catch my eye? Are you just another cabin in the woods or it's like, oh, wow. Like I'm really offering like a guest experience. My pictures are great, you know, things like that. So yeah, like it kind of gave you like four, I would say, or four to five areas. Again, it's a large Bush Kill Falls. It's basically like the Niagara Falls of, you know, Pennsylvania. A little smaller, but great for hiking.
Yeah, these are all like, you get Closer to these areas, I think you'll.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: See. So you mentioned cabin, which brings me to another question.
In some mountain markets, like the Smokies, for example, I hate to compare, like, every mountain market to the Smokies, but that's the one I know the best. So I'm sorry, y'. All. That's. That's my frame of reference. So, like the Smokies, it really needs to be an actual cabin in order to rent really well. Now, there are exceptions to that. If it just happens to be a super cool property and it's not a cabin. But typically in the Smokies, it needs to be a cabin. Is. Is that true in the Poconos, or can it be more of, you know, a regular style house or other styles, or does it kind of need to be a cabin also?
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Doesn't have to be a cabin. It can. You know, there's. There's multiple. Yeah, so there's multiple homes within the Poconos, like macro market and certain submarkets where it is just a normal home.
Larger. Usually the ones that do well. But I mean, don't get me wrong, like, there's some areas like. Like right near Lake Harmony, you'll see more cabins. But, like, when you're going to Poconos, it doesn't necessarily mean you're staying in just a cabin. Like, you have options. Like, there are other options in the area. Don't get me wrong. It'll have, like, the. The nature vibe. You know, your fire pit, you know, things like that, where you'll be in nature. But if it's like a home that's just strictly made out of logs or, you know, just what would be deemed a cabin, it doesn't have to. 100%.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Okay. That's pretty cool. I like that. That opens up options.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: All right. And we don't have to get too far in the weeds on this because we do have somebody from STR Insights coming on in a later episode to talk about revenue in this market. But in tart, I want to hear about sizes of properties that do well and kind of what you're looking at price wise to get into this market. Because I feel like price is typically the biggest limiter for people on whether they choose to get into a market or not.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And the price does range depending on location, depending on the bedroom count, you can likely buy a home that's very affordable. Like, you know, like 400 to 450,000 usually. I would say a good entry point is the 500k market. Mark. Once you start getting above the 500k mark, homes can be a little more turnkey, a little bigger, like the 6 to 700 range. I mean, there's homes in this area that sell for a million dollars.
Some good deals, some not, just depending on the bedroom count and the location.
Good entry point, because there you'll go on. Let's say, hypothetically, someone goes on Zillow, and they'll see that there's homes that are selling for 350k to 450 or 400k. Doesn't mean they're necessarily bad homes. But I would say the most common entry point that say, like, hey, like, how much do I have to spend to get into this market? I think that 450 to 500k, at least purchase price to get into the market.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Okay, so if I've got a $500,000 budget, I can come into the Poconos and probably find something.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Yes, yes, correct. As long as you do the things. The right things.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Um, all right, so do we need to have crazy amenities here, like the fully immersive pickleball court, the. The putt putt, the sauna, like the immersive decor? Do we have. Of course that can work anywhere. But do we have to have that, or can we go a little more meat and potatoes, make sure we're cute, clean and comfortable, but a nice place to stay and still do well?
[00:19:56] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I think you can. I. I think if you do go the. The cute, clean stay route, I would recommend trying to get a bigger home.
But, yeah, and there are homes in this market that have all the bells and whistles that do really well. But is it required?
No, I don't believe so.
But there. Yes, there are homes that have slides in the bedrooms, pickleball court, you know, indoor pools. That's a really popular amenity. And there's not a lot of homes in the area that have it. It's probably about. In the whole market, 20 of them. And those. The revenue goes up a lot with those amenities. So you do see the return on investment. But to answer your question, it's not required.
But you do need to have something that separates.
Separates you. If you do do that. But it doesn't have to be extremely expensive.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Okay, good to know. And is this somewhere that you have to have a hot tub to be on par with the rest of your competition, or can you go without?
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah, similar. Similar to the Smokies. It is.
That is like, the staple amenity is to have an outdoor hot tub.
So, yes, I believe So I think it's a good starting point. I think without one, you're kind of putting yourself behind.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's pretty easy to accomplish.
All right, what about condos? Do condos work in this market or does it need to be a single family?
[00:21:34] Speaker B: They do primarily right near the ski resorts.
Like they, they did any, any other location. Not really like it would have to be a single family. But you do have like right near the ski resorts.
They have some condos there that people rent out as. As short term rentals. So you can do that there. But anywhere else, like, location wise, it would.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Okay, I'm trying to think what else. So in this mountain area, how important are you views? Is this somewhere you can get a nice view or is it more like you're up in the woods most of the time?
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there are homes with views, but I would say more times than not, it. It kind of is. You're in.
You're just in the woods for the most part. It's like kind of how they're. The homes are spaced out as. As well, so not 100% required.
If you do have a nice. Like there are homes with nice views. That, that is, it is beneficial to have that. But a lot of the homes are mainly in the woods. Yeah.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Okay, that's good to know. So we don't need to be on the hunt for a property that has a view. I mean, if you can get one, Great. But you can do fine without it.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yes, correct.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: Okay, great. What about four wheel drive? Do we have a lot of steep driveways around here? Is that something we need to manage with our guests?
[00:22:59] Speaker B: Yes, yes, very important. Because especially in the wintertime where it snows and it's especially where you're steep driveways, it's in the Poconos, it snows a lot. So really dialing in that, that procedure of like that sop of okay, when it snows, what do we do? Right? Like are we on top of it? Are we. Are, is. Are we making sure we're calling. You know, we're in communication with our, our snowplow guy to kind of do the driveways because, yeah, the last thing you want is your guest arrives and the house isn't or the driveway isn't plowed and it's kind of steep. You do not want to put yourself in a situation like that. So it is something to communicate with guests. And also when you're looking at homes too, as well, I kind of look in the driveway because just imagine that like maybe even if you're shopping in the summer, like this whole driveway will eventually be covered with, with snow. But it's, it's not like it's very uncommon. Like if it were to snow in the south, like they're, you know, it's very well prepared for snow to come, but it is something to think about just to be ready for and keeping track of the weather as it comes.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Okay. But so because it's up north and typically northern cities are prepared for these kinds of things because they deal with it all the time, you know, all winter. It's not a situation where the entire world shuts down when it snows like it does.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: No, no. Like even like a few years ago when it, when it snowed in Texas and the whole city, they shut down schools and, and everything that. It's not the same case in the north. It snows up here all the time.
You know, usually snowfall kind of depends right around that early December, maybe late November, even just recently it just snowed. So. And when it does snow, that's when it, the, the ski season is about to start. So.
But yeah, no, they're, you know, they're usually like on top of it. They're keeping track of it. They're, they're doing the roads, putting salt down very like immediately, but it is the responsibility of the homeowner to make sure that they're contracted with somebody to have their driveways done.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Awesome. I think that's a really important call out because especially a lot of people who might be looking to diversify outside of the Smokies to a very similar market, which I feel like the Poconos is a very similar market to the Smokies. That's a big difference is, is snow stuff and managing snow. So that's, that's a very important call out. Thank you for mentioning that.
Um, so here's another one. With the rise of in popularity again in the last year of the short term rental tax strategy, now that the big beautiful bill brought back 100% bonus depreciation, we see a lot of new high income earners who are investing who just want to short term rent it the first year and then convert it to a long term rental the second year.
And because they don't want to self manage it after the first year. And in a lot of vacation markets that's not doable. Like here in Destin, you could never take a five bedroom short term rental and then expect to get any kind of cash flowing amount for it to be a long term rental is. And that's the case for a lot of vacation markets. So because there's just nobody who lives here or like in the Smokies really, there's very few people who live there full time that need long term rentals, especially luxury ones. Because short term rentals, if they're nice enough to be a good short term rental, that constitutes a luxury long term rental to me. So in the Poconos, is that something you can do or would you be better off instead of trying to turn around and long term rent it? Just putting it with a traditional short term rental property manager?
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I personally think you're better off just putting it with a property manager. And don't get me wrong, I see people try to do this.
Like you can even go on Zillow right now and you could see some homes that are available for long term rent that you know, but it looks like a short term rental. Like it has, you know, the hot tub, it has a fire pit, it has a sauna and they're just sitting, you know. So it, I think you're, you really are better off if you were going to do that and just self manage for that year one to get that, that, that benefit.
I think this is a short term rental market. That's the big thing. Like again, it's the same thing. There's not a ton of people that are living in the Poconos full time. Like people are just coming here to short term rent. And I think if you, if you buy a home that's built to be a short term rental, it's better off just keeping it that way.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think that we, I had somebody recently reach out who wanted, she was a new investor, high income, wanted to do short term rental tax loopholes the end of the year and she said, well, I'm a long term rental investor, I've got plenty of long term. So what I want to do is buy a short term rental and like a C or D class neighborhood, turn it into a short term rental for the first year and then convert it to long term. And I'm like, that's, you can't, you can't do something successfully a short term rental in a C or a D class neighborhood. You're going to get bad reviews if the neighborhood is not also nice. So you really do have to buy a different property for each asset class. In my opinion, when you try to start mixing asset classes like that, you're not going to do either one effectively. So that's not Pocono specific. That's just more general real estate investing, but thought I'd throw it out there for anybody listening who might want to go down that road.
So I think that is pretty much it for my questions. Well, one more question. So what would you say is the biggest mistake that new investors make in the Poconos to avoid for. For our listeners so they don't make mistakes?
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Yes, I would say buying something far away from the main attractions. Like if you're. If you're like 40 or 45 minutes away from everything, you're. Unless your home has all the bells and whistles, even then you're kind of just putting yourself at a disadvantage. So I would say location is important in the Pocono mountains. Not just even because being close to the attractions, but also township ordinance. Right. Like there, there's certain HOAs that are really short term rental friendly and then, you know, you're welcome with open arms. And there's other ones that don't even allow it. There's other ones that do allow it, but they're very strict. It's really important to know where you're investing and why. Why you're investing there. So I would say the big thing is location and then kind of going off of what I said earlier about you can't just buy a home as is unless it's like turnkey and just expect to start making money like it. It's got to put some, you know, it has to have some nice design. It has to have, you know, a little, like, amenities. It has to look good. It has to really be targeted at your target market like your, your avatar who's coming to the Poconos. So I would, in that sense, I would start with the guest first who's coming here and work your way back, kind of reverse engineer it to set up your home that way. So location and presentation are extremely important in this.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Got it.
All right. Is there anything before we get to the end of the show, anything about why people buy in the Poconos and what people should buy and location and type of property that I haven't asked that you feel like our listeners should hear?
[00:30:58] Speaker B: No, I think you hit. Hit on everything. Like I said, buying something near those attractions, like the lakes and the multiple ski resorts and, you know, the more people that you could service, the more people that you could sleep, the better the home will do. Usually also while doing that, though, it's important to, like I said, stay with those township ordinance because there might be some occupancy restrictions on a home. Like you can't just buy a three bedroom and just want to sleep 16 people.
So something to keep in mind with that as well. And that also goes, that goes hand in hand with, you know, your septic tank, which we'll discuss in a different episode. But like if your septic tank's only so big, it can only sleep so many people. That's in the ordinance and the inspections as well.
So you can't sleep. So something bigger than that.
But yeah, no, I think we touched on everything. Hey, it's a really. People are coming here. People are coming to the Poconos. Millions of people every single year are coming to the Poconos. Driving in primarily and they're that you'll never see any demand go down in the Poconos at all. People are coming here. It's all about how you're going to separate yourself with your home. But you know, it's. You make the right partnership and really get with a, a professional who knows the market inside and out.
It'll be fine.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: All right, guys, if you are interested in buying a short term rental in the Poconos and working with Tristan, you can email us at agents the shorttermshop.com go to our website theshortermshop.com and you can get a hold of us there. Follow us on social media at the short term, shop on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, all the above and we'll get you in touch with Tristan and get you a property in the Poconos. We'll see you on the next episode. Thanks, guys.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Thanks.
